#1 By: Metropropolis, November 14th, 2013 21:33
What an interesting project.
You've probably avoided Langstroth as too banal, however, I'd like to bring your attention to my Langstroth observation hive design:
The windowing is similar to the concept on your Top Bar Hive. Building this hive is fairly labor intensive an requires a lot of routing. Using a CNC router would greatly simplify.
One sheet of 4'x2' plexi provides enough windows for 6 such supers...... a reasonable size for a hive.
Complete instructions:
http://members.shaw.ca/metropropolis/The%20Bowness%20Observation%20Hive.pdf
#2 By: Aaron Makaruk, November 15th, 2013 01:53
What an incredible design - I would love to see the bees living inside.
#3 By: Tristan Copley Smith, November 15th, 2013 08:31
Awesome @Metropropolis - are you familiar with with 3D modelling, or know anyone who is? Would you be interested in developing a CNC routable version of this design? If so, we'd be totally down to host your design with our project.
#4 By: Metropropolis, November 15th, 2013 13:18
Drawing a stick man in sketchup would challenge my abilities and possibly lead to injury.
If anyone is so inclined, however, I believe there are sufficient measurements in the document to allow it to be adapted.
#5 By: Metropropolis, November 15th, 2013 21:46
I've considered how I'd do this, and may be able to meet you folks halfway. I can conceive of the components and dimensions, and can lay it out in a hand-drawing, if someone would be able to take it rest of the distance in terms of a CAD layout.
Workable?
#6 By: Tristan Copley Smith, November 16th, 2013 06:32
@Metropropolis that sounds excellent! Please share your work below when it's ready, and we'll look into getting the thing modelled. Cheers!
#7 By: Metropropolis, November 16th, 2013 14:44
Rough draft already completed, but the design depends upon two things:
That your CNC cutter can cut dadoes/rabbets.
That your CNC cutter can cut plexi.
Update: Oh, and ability to create pilot holes would help.
Let me know.
#8 By: Tristan Copley Smith, November 17th, 2013 12:41
@aaronmakaruk is more knowledgeable in these things than I - could you get back to @Metropropolis please dude? Thanks!
#9 By: Metropropolis, November 18th, 2013 12:30
Alright.
I've drafted a design, complete with materials, cuts, and measurements.
From it I've distilled a materials list/cutlist which can be downloaded from:
http://members.shaw.ca/metropropolis/tmp/Calgary%20CNC%20Observation%20Lang%20Materials%20and%20Cut%20List.xls
I am still working on documenting the placement of rabbets, pilot holes, etc, but this list shows the parts needed, their number, and their dimensions. This should provide sufficient information for you to input into your CAD program, so it can generate a basic layout.
The immediate question I'm hoping to find out is: Can all of this fit on a single 4x8 sheet of ply?
A couple of notes:
A hive solely with observation supers would be incomplete without other hive components. Thus, I've added other components: Screened bottom board, Quilt, and Roof. Together these provide maximum function/flexibility with minimum components.
A quilt is an old-school component that fell out of usage long before I was born. I've adapted the concept to be a multifunction item that replaces both an inner cover and a feeder, and provides ventilation in summer, and insulation in the winter.
The question of frames has been left aside for now.
My design requires a couple of pieces of 1/8" metal mesh. This may not fit with what you're already doing, but I suggest that in the age of varroa, a screened bottom should be considered necessary.
All of the cutting can be done with a 1/8" router bit/mill, for both wood and plexi, although a second (or previous) pass with a 1/16" drill bit to drill pilot holes would be desired.
The design is for 6 medium observation supers. 6 is the magic number, as this is what you get from two 4X2 sheets of plexi, with the least waste. Plus, 6 mediums is a reasonable size for a hive (3 for brood, 3 for honey)
Let me know if this is useful to you, and what modifications you think need to be made.
.... And if you think this is not workable... Let me know straight up....
#10 By: Metropropolis, November 19th, 2013 12:40
Update: I used some layout software last night to get a sense of materials usage. It appears that 6 observation supers alone used 3/4 of a sheet of ply, but didn't leave enough room for the other components. Two sheets would be needed to make a functional hive.
This is based upon using a 1/4" Router bit/Mill.
The bad news: Creating what I would consider a functional hive may increase the material requirements beyond what the spirit of your project allows.
The good news: If two sheets of ply are to be used there will be spare room for other nice-to-have components such as a queen excluder, a slatted rack, a gable hive roof. Any remaining space could be used to make some extra non-windowed supers.
The uploaded spreadsheet has had some slight formatting changes made to make it easier to load into my layout software.
The information provided should at least be sufficient for you gents to make a decision if you wish to continue to go down this path.
#11 By: Aaron Makaruk, November 20th, 2013 01:08
#12 By: Metropropolis, November 29th, 2013 10:17
Hi Gents,
I appreciate the positive feedback I've received on my contributions.
Unfortunately, I've received no response to my questions, feedback in terms of your manufacturing processes, or suggestions as to what direction you'd like a Langstroth version to take.
Ideally, I'd like to incorporate my work into your vision, not replace your vision with my own.... but at at this point, I'm flying blind.
It's difficult for me to make any further contributions not knowing if they are suitable or not.
My overall sense is that you may not consider a Langstoth hive suitable for your project, but given the lack of feedback, who knows?
The idea of a CNC-cut hive is engaging to me, and the tools to get there are not as inaccessible to me as they seemed a few weeks ago.
I'm afraid at this point I'm going to have to take my ball and go home, perhaps continuing on my own later.
I'll leave my measurements up on my site, and you're welcome to use as you like.
Regards,
MP.
#13 By: Tristan Copley Smith, November 29th, 2013 15:49
Hi @Metropropolis - sorry for not getting back to you - its been quite busy on our end.
We absolutely support your efforts, and would love to host your design when its ready. Recently we've decided to focus our energy on biodynamic hives like Top Bars, but the more selection we have, the better.
I'm not an expert in the design process, but you can download free software such as Sketchup and there are loads of tutorials to help you design simple models. If you send us a design, we can help you convert it so the CNC machine can cut it out, and host it on the site!
How does this sound?
#14 By: Joe Meyer, December 2nd, 2013 19:16
I'm not sure I understand the absence of Langstroth's design .
I'll be the first to admit it leaves little room for customization since it has such strict measurement requirements, but that is the genius behind it.
Rev. L.L. Langstroth is credited with discovering honey bees follow these fundamental rules when constructing their combs:
gaps and spaces smaller than 1/4 inch (~6 mm) are filled with propolis. Gaps larger than 3/8 inch (9.5 mm) will have comb built in them during nectar flows. The dimension between is known as bee space.
As a compromise between beekeeper and bee, he designed a hive that respected this bee space, provided combs were built inside the frames*. This allowed people to meddle and observe (like people do) by removing comb from the hive causing minimal damage and replacing (even moving) comb without squishing bees or damaging comb.
So far this sounds good for bees and good for their keepers. I'm not sure what excludes Langstroth's design from a statement like this:
* Foundation?
Foundation is not a requirement of keeping bees in a hive with frames.
Many people in the beekeeping community are experimenting with foundation-less frames using techniques like those used in top bar hives. Some are reporting to be quite successful.
The style of the hive doesn't determine if the bees are kept biodynamically or not, rather the management practices of the beekeeper.
#15 By: Metropropolis, December 4th, 2013 23:37
As you observe, it fits with the other components, that's part of the genius. The flexibility is in the modularity. It is like Lego. The "modules" have to be a consistent size to be compatible with the other modules, but there's plenty of room within that. I make all sorts of oddball customized woodenware for my own purposes. I imagine the same could be said for Warre, which is somewhat-standardized, but could not be said for KTBH, which is "blessed" with many standards.
Agreed. Similarly, I saw a Langstroth hive referred to in another thread as a "Commercial hive".
Really, without knowing background of whether or not the beekeeper is in business, it's hard to say if any given hive is commercial or not. Likewise, Top Bar hives can be commercial if used to make money.
I speculate that those in charge of this project are new beekeepers who have been informed by the preconceptions of other new beekeepers.
No harm, no foul - It wasn't so long ago I was a new beekeeper, and full of such ideas.
#16 By: Joe Meyer, December 5th, 2013 11:41
Exactly. I love that there is a group such as this motivated to design a better hive, even if it is mostly new beekeepers. It took me a while to realize that just because the beekeeping industry is not sustainable, does not mean EVERY aspect of it is unsustainable. It wasn't till recently, when I decided to spend half my life savings toward starting a small bee business that I really felt the gravity of the state of beekeeping.
#17 By: Joe Meyer, December 5th, 2013 11:56
We are getting off topic.
Langstroth.
All the dimensions for the shell of a Langstroth hive are public.
http://www.beesource.com/files/10frlang.pdf
I've built all these parts with a table saw, drill press, and hand tools (No box joints). I did manage to make a pretty good inset handle with a circular saw and jig.
CNC seems to be the primary tool of this group? Not sure if it can help this construction on a local scale, I'm sure it already does in suppliers like mannlakeltd.com
Frames are the tricky part. I've tried building my own. Very difficult to make it worth your time considering they sell for about a $1.00 each. Less if you buy in bulk.
People on this forum seem to be fabrication enthusiasts. There is no need to figure out how to fabricate a Langstroth because it's already been done! Specialized machines mill beehive components for many suppliers around the USA.
#18 By: Metropropolis, December 11th, 2013 10:37
True enough, although you may note above that I had submitted my own version, which is an observation hive. It is lovely, but effort intensive - Not practical for the average person, but CNC has potential to make such a design more accessible. I expect it will not be long before CNC sees more widespread adoption and accessibility.
I can see that these CNC manufacturing processes allow more than simply re-inventing the wheel... they make complex designs more accessible.
I hear you. Although this does allow for customizations which one may not find in standard woodenware... Customizations which may be of benefit to a small scale keeper.
#19 By: Colten Jackson, January 20th, 2014 01:12
I'm glad to find different ideas for hives here, I'm particularly interested in observation hives for educational purposes. I think that CNC machines play an important role in this idea of open source design, because once one person develops a good design it can be very easily duplicated by others with access to the machinery (and access to CNCs is growing with the popularity of FabLabs and Makerspaces) - but practicality must always be considered. If the frames are being mass produced and there's no need to improve them, why waste the effort? Unless you're finding a better way to produce them going into the future.
@eojreyem, I think you'll find a lot of the technologically adept people like the idea of automated machines they can download the plans (.gcode) for, instead of learning to use the standard workshop tools and make something with their hands. I think there's value to encouraging people to learn how to use standard tools (or hook up with someone who does!), but just as well making plans available for people with access to CNC machines.
I don't feel like I'm adding much to the conversation, except to say that both sides should keep doing what they're doing, there's no 1 right way. @Metropropolis (great nic by the way), thanks for the great how-to.
#20 By: Christopher Borke, February 20th, 2014 15:36
I've begun developing cad files for the basic Langstroth hive according to the public beesource dimensions provided above. My intent is to hash out the basic Langstroth as a refresher since it's been close to 8 years since I've worked in Inventor, and then move into observation hive variations with these files as a base.
Some questions:
What kind of cad files are you looking for to cut these things?
I noticed I can only upload .jpegs, is there a repository where we store our pdf and cad files?
Is there a cad best practices document you makers use? Most of my previous cad work was for non-collaborative use and I'm sure I've reinforced some bad habits by doing so.
For Example:
In past projects I've spaced the part off of my CNC bed to avoid cutting into the table by using scrap wood. I've reflected that in my drawing (the extra flat piece on the bottom is the clamped protection scrap board). Should I assume that makers will not cut into their tables and remove that extra material, or leave it?
More to come soon, it's definitely refreshing to get out of C-land for a while and jog my spatial side with some CAD!
~Borke
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